Discussion:
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
(too old to reply)
Donna Kupp
2010-07-20 19:33:37 UTC
Permalink
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?

We are all condemned to death for our past sins before being born of
God.

When we repent, all past sins which required our death because of the
law of sin and death are forgiven.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God;

The Greek word for "handwriting of ordinances" which were nailed to
the cross (KJV) is "cheriographon" which means - a certificate of
debt.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,
nailing it to his cross;

The Biblical concept of sin is that when we sin we owe a debt to God
which can only be paid by the shedding of blood - our death.

Remember the Lord's prayer.. Father forgive us our debts..."?

Paul was referring to the Roman practice of nailing a list of the
crimes a person has committed to the cross when that person was
crucified as an analogy for what was nailed to the cross of Christ.

Spiritually speaking what was nailed to the cross was a list of all
our past sins (debts) which are covered by the blood (death) of
Jesus.

Harold and Donna Kupp

The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
Jesus Friend
2010-07-20 20:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Sad, when you have two individuals by the name of Harold and Donna Kupp
who in a desperation to prove themselves right they will add words to
the bible verses they use to prove there point. As Vince Garcia in
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal has pointed out on numerous occasions
and I quote;

"Why?"

"Because she has a false gospel of works, and so every single verse she
quotes will be interpreted through eyes of earning one's salvation by
keeping the law."

"And her denials to the contrary are sheer deception and hypocrisy.
That's why she must constantly add words to scripture verses to make
them read how she wants on issues of justification, redemption, and
salvation."

"And, by coincidence, she has heretical views on justification,
redemption, and salvation."

So Vince Garcia has done his homework, and has shone that Harold and
Donna Kupp are not;

2 Timothy 2:15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who
does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

So as Vince Garcia, has shone on numerous occasions that Harold and
Donna Kupp, are not correctly handling the word of truth. So Harold and
Donna Kupp, are false prophets and should stop teaching the Word of God.

Jesus Friend - <///><
http://roberthartung.com/Christianity_Church.htm
http://www.facebook.com/ke4jcd
RWKnapp
2010-07-21 01:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jesus Friend
Sad, when you have two individuals by the name of Harold and Donna Kupp
who in a desperation to prove themselves right they will add words to
the bible verses they use to prove there point. As Vince Garcia in
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal has pointed out on numerous occasions
and I quote;
"Why?"
Could be they are not two only one useing two names so it looks like
someone agrees with them.
Post by Jesus Friend
"Because she has a false gospel of works, and so every single verse she
quotes will be interpreted through eyes of earning one's salvation by
keeping the law."
"And her denials to the contrary are sheer deception and hypocrisy.
That's why she must constantly add words to scripture verses to make
them read how she wants on issues of justification, redemption, and
salvation."
"And, by coincidence, she has heretical views on justification,
redemption, and salvation."
So Vince Garcia has done his homework, and has shone that Harold and
Donna Kupp are not;
2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who
does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
So as Vince Garcia, has shone on numerous occasions that Harold and
Donna Kupp, are not correctly handling the word of truth. So Harold and
Donna Kupp, are false prophets and should stop teaching the Word of God.
Jesus Friend - <///><http://roberthartung.com/Christianity_Church.htmhttp://www.facebook.com/ke4jcd
vince garcia
2010-07-21 12:56:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Jesus Friend
Sad, when you have two individuals by the name of Harold and Donna Kupp
who in a desperation to prove themselves right they will add words to
the bible verses they use to prove there point. As Vince Garcia in
alt.religion.christian.pentecostal has pointed out on numerous occasions
and I quote;
"Why?"
Could be they are not two only one useing two names so it looks like
someone agrees with them.
they're both on facebook, so they are (unfortunately) two real people
G
2010-07-20 21:09:25 UTC
Permalink
In article <059b2f15-5958-4aec-a383-9f12581b7449
@t5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, ***@charter.net says...
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
We are all condemned to death for our past sins before being born of
God.
When we repent, all past sins which required our death because of the
law of sin and death are forgiven.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God;
And if we keep reading:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but
by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by
faith without the deeds of the law." - Romans 3:27-28
RWKnapp
2010-07-21 01:40:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world to them that took the Name of Jesus and accepted
Jesus as the Saviour the Messiah as promised. Jesus is not a WHAT
neither is God The creator.
Pastor Dave
2010-07-21 07:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh
so He could pay for ALL the sins of the world
And since the penalty has been paid, the Mosaic Law
can no longer be in effect.

Not only that, but the Bible says that the Mosaic Law
was also nailed to the cross.

Therefore, you would agree that the Mosaic Law is
no longer in effect, correct?
--
Pastor Dave

"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself,
but talent instantly recognizes genius."
- Sir Arthur Doyle
Donna Kupp
2010-07-22 14:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Dave
Not only that, but the Bible says that the Mosaic Law
was also nailed to the cross.
Therefore, you would agree that the Mosaic Law is
no longer in effect, correct?
Dear Reader,

I refer you to the original post in this thread and todays
post: ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE.

Donna Kupp
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-07-22 15:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Kupp
Post by Pastor Dave
Not only that, but the Bible says that the Mosaic Law
was also nailed to the cross.
Therefore, you would agree that the Mosaic Law is
no longer in effect, correct?
Dear Reader,
I refer you to the original post in this thread and todays
post:  ALL SCRIPTURE IS PROFITABLE.
Donna Kupp
The Two Parts of the Word of God: Law & Gospel


by Theodore Beza (1519-1605)


The following article by Theodore Beza was taken from chapter four
(sections 22-30) of his book The Christian Faith, translated into
english by James Clark (Focus Christian Ministries Trust, East Essex
England, 1992). This book was a "best seller" during the Protestant
Reformation, and appeared in 1558 under the original title of
Confession De Foi Du Chretien. The current modern edition contains no
copyright notice, therefore it is assumed that the articles contained
within it may be freely distributed. The electronic edition of this
book was scanned and edited by Shane Rosenthal for Reformation Ink.
Original pagination has been retained for purposes of reference.
Original title appears below.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That which we call The Word of God: Its two parts -- the Law and the
Gospel

On this subject we call the "Word of God" (for we know well that the
Eternal Son of God is also so named) the canonical books of the Old
and New Testament; for they proceed from the mouth of God Himself.

We divide this Word into two principal parts or kinds: the one is
called the "Law", the other the "Gospel". For, all the rest can be
gathered under the one or the other of these two headings.

What we call Law (when it is distinguished from Gospel and is taken
for one of the two parts of the Word) is a doctrine whose seed is
written by nature in our hearts. However, so that we may have a more
exact knowledge, it was written by God on two Tables and is briefly
comprehended in ten commandments. In these He sets out for us the
obedience and perfect righteousness which we owe to His majesty and
our neighbours. This on contrasting terms: either perpetual life, if
we perfectly keep the Law without omitting a single point, or eternal
death, if we do not completely fulfil the contents of each commandment
(Deut. 30:15-20; James 2:10).

What we call the Gospel ("Good News") is a doctrine which is not at
all in us by nature, but which is revealed from Heaven (Matt 16:17;
John 1:13), and totally surpasses natural knowledge. By it God
testifies to us that it is His purpose to save us freely by His only
Son (Rom. 3:20-22), provided that, by faith, we embrace Him as our
only wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption (1 Cor
1:30). By it, I say, the Lord testifies to us all these things, and
even does it in such a manner that at the same time he renews our
persons in a powerful way so that we may embrace the benefits which
are offered to us (1 Cor 2:4).


The similarities and the differences between the Law and the Gospel

We must pay great attention to these things. For, with good reason, we
can say that ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel is
one of the principle sources of the abuses which corrupted and still
corrupt Christianity.

The majority of men, blinded by the just judgement of God, have indeed
never seriously considered what curse the Law subjects us to, nor why
it has been ordained by God. And, as for the Gospel, they have nearly
always thought that it was nothing other than a second Law, more
perfect than the first. From this has come the erroneous distinction
between precept and advice; there has followed, little by little, the
total ruin of the benefit of Jesus Christ.

Now, we must besides consider these things. The Law and the Gospel
have in common that they are both from the one true God, always
consistent with Himself (Heb. 1:1-2). We must not therefore think that
the Gospel abolishes the essence of the Law. On the contrary, the Law
establishes the essence of the Gospel (Rom 10:2-4); this is what we
shall explain a little further on. For both set before us the same God
and the essence of the same righteousness (Rom 3:31), which resides in
perfect love to God and our neighbour. But there is a great difference
in these points which we shall touch on, and especially concerning the
means of obtaining this righteousness.

For, in the first place, as we alluded to before, the Law is natural
to man. God has engraven it in his heart from creation (Rom 1:32;
2:14,15). When, a long time afterwards, God made and exhibited the two
Tables of the Law, this was not to make a new law, but only to restore
our first knowledge of the natural law which, because of the
corruption of sin, was little by little becoming obliterated from the
heart of man (Rom 7:8-9). But the gospel is a supernatural doctrine
which our nature would never have been able to imagine nor able to
approve without a special grace of God (1 Cor. 1:23; 2:14). But, the
Lord has revealed it, firstly to Adam shortly after his sin, as Moses
declares (Gen 3:15), afterwards to the patriarchs and the prophets in
increasing degrees as seemed good to Him (Rom 1:2; Luke 1:55,70),
until the day in which He manifested Jesus Christ in Person. It is He
who has clearly announced and accomplished all that is contained in
the Gospel (John 15:15; 6:38). This Gospel God still reveals today and
will reveal it until the end of the world by the preaching instituted
in His Church (John 17:18; Matt 28:20; 2 Cor. 5:20).

In the second place, the Law lays bare to us the majesty and justice
of God (Heb. 12:18-21). The Gospel sets forth this same justice to us,
but there it is pacified and satisfied by the mercy manifested in
Christ (Heb. 12:22- 24).

In the third place, the Law sends us to ourselves in order to
accomplish the righteousness which it commands us, that is to say, the
perfect obedience to its commandments, which is necessary in order to
escape guilt. That is why it shows us our curse and subjects us to it,
as the Apostle declares (Rom 3:20; Gal 3:10-12). But the gospel
teaches us where we shall find what we do not have and, having found
it, how we shall be able to enjoy it. That is why it delivers us from
the curse of the Law (Rom 3:21,22; Gal 3:13,14). In conclusion, the
Law pronounces us blessed when we accomplish it without omitting
anything; the Gospel promises us salvation when we believe, that is to
say, when, by faith, we take hold of Jesus Christ who has everything
which we lack, and still more that we need. Now, these two terms -- to
do what the Law commands, or to believe what God offers us in Jesus
Christ -- are two things which are not only very difficult but totally
impossible to our corrupt nature. This latter, as St Paul says, cannot
even perceive what is of God (2 Cor. 3:5; Phil 1:29). That is why it
is necessary to add a fourth difference between the Law and the
Gospel.

Thus, the fourth difference between the Law and the Gospel is that the
Law, by itself, can only show us, and make us see, our evil more
exceedingly, and aggravate our condemnation; not through any fault of
its own (for it is good and holy), but because our corrupt nature
burns for sin the more it is reproved and threatened, as St. Paul has
declared through his own example (Rom 7:7-14). But the Gospel not only
shows us the remedy against the curse of the law, but it is at the
same time accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit who regenerates
us and changes us (as we have said above); for He creates in us the
instrument and sole means of applying to us this remedy (Acts
26:17,18).

In order to speak even more clearly, let us expound these words
"letter" and "spirit" which some have taken in the wrong sense. I say,
therefore, that the Gospel is not "letter", that is to say, only a
dead doctrine which sets before us in their bareness and simplicity (I
do not say those things which it is fitting for us to do -- for that
is the office of the Law) the things which it is necessary for us to
believe: that salvation is promised freely in Jesus Christ to those
who believe; but it is "spirit", that is to say, a powerful means full
of efficacy from the Holy Spirit, and He uses it to create in us the
power to believe the things which He teaches us, that is to say, to
embrace free salvation in Jesus Christ. It is thus that the Law
itself, which kills us and damns us in ourselves, justifies us and
saves us in Jesus Christ, taken hold of by faith (Rom 3:31).

This is the reason why I have said that the Law and the Gospel are not
contrary in that which concerns the essence of the righteousness with
which we must be clothed in order to be accepted before God and to
participate in eternal life; but they are contrary with regard to the
means of having this righteousness. For the Law justly seeks in us
this righteousness; it has no regard to what we can do but to what we
ought to do (Gal 3:12). Man, indeed, by his own fault alone, has made
himself unable to pay; nevertheless, he does not cease to be a debtor
even if he is unable to pay. And consequently, the Law does us no
wrong in demanding from us that which we owe, although we cannot pay
it. But the Gospel, softening this righteous rigour as with the honey
of God's mercy, teaches us to pay by Him who has made Himself our
Surety, who has put Himself, I say, in our place and paid our debt, as
principal debtor, and to the last farthing (Col. 2:13,14). So that the
rigour of the Law which made us tremble in ourselves and struck us
down completely, now confirms us and accepts us in Jesus Christ. For,
since eternal life is due to those who have obeyed the Law perfectly,
and Jesus Christ has fulfilled all righteousness in the name of those
who should believe in Him and take hold of Him by faith (1 Cor. 1:30;
Phil. 3:9), it follows that, even according to the rigour of the Law,
salvation cannot fail those who, by faith, have become united and
incorporated with Jesus Christ.



For what ends the Holy Spirit uses the preaching of the Law

Having carefully understood this distinction of the two parts of the
Word of God, the Law and the Gospel, it is easy to understand how and
to what end the Holy Spirit uses the preaching of the one and the
other in the Church. For there is no doubt that He employs them for
the purpose for which they have been established.

We are then all so blind, whilst our corruption reigns in us, that we
are ignorant even of our ignorance (John 9:41) and, not ceasing to
smother the little light of knowledge which has been left to us so as
to render ourselves inexcusable (Rom. 1:20,21; 2:1), we are pleased
about that which ought to displease us most. It is necessary, before
all things, that God, all good and full of pity, makes us know clearly
the cursed pit in which we are. He could do it no better than by
informing us, by the declaration of His Law, what we ought necessarily
to be. Thus, blackness can never be better known than in being placed
beside white (Rom. 3:20; 7:13).

This is why God begins with the preaching of the Law. In it alone we
can see what we ought to be; and yet we cannot fulfil a single point
of it. In it alone, we can see how near we are to our damnation,
unless there comes to us some very strong and sure remedy.

And indeed, the stupidity which has reigned in the world at an times
and reigns now more than ever, shows clearly how necessary it is that
God begins at this point in order to draw us to Himself: by making us
know what great and certain danger those are in who think least of it.
The fact is, the Law was not given to justify us (for if this were so,
Jesus Christ would have died in vain, as St. Paul says; Gal 2:21;
3:18-21), but, on the contrary, to condemn us, and to show us the hell
which is opened wide to swallow us, to annihilate and totally abase
our pride, in making the multitude of our sins pass before our eyes
and showing us the wrath of God which is revealed from Heaven against
us (Rom 1:18; 4:15; Gal 3:10,12). However, for a long time men have
been blind and senseless. Not only do they seek their salvation in
that which condemns them wholly or in part, that is to say, in their
works, instead of running to Jesus Christ by faith, the only remedy
against all that they can be justly accused of before God; but, what
is more, they do not cease to add law upon law to their conscience,
that is to say, condemnation upon condemnation, as if the Law of God
did not condemn them enough (Gal 4:9,10; 5:1; Col. 2:8,16-23). It is
like a prisoner to whom the prison door would be opened, but who,
turning away from a freedom which he does not understand, goes away
and voluntarily locks himself in a prison which is even more secure.

There then is the first use of the preaching of the Law; to make known
our innumerable faults so that in ourselves we begin to be miserable
and greatly humble ourselves; in short, to beget in us the first
degree of repentance which is called 'contrition of heart'; this
produces a full and open confession toward the Lord. For he who does
not know that he is sick will never come to the physician. 'Mere are
none more unfit to receive the light of salvation than those who think
they see clearly by themselves, through lack of understanding how
thick is the darkness in which they are born; so great that they must
come out of it. On the contrary, they have always made it thicker from
then on, and have not ceased to rush on willingly in it (John 9:41).



The other part of the Word of God called "Gospel": Its authority, why,
how and for what end it was written

After the Law comes the Gospel, the use and necessity of which cannot
be better understood than by noting the following points:

Firstly, even as there is only one Saviour (Matt 1:21; Acts 4:12; 1
Tim 2:5), there is also only one doctrine of salvation which is called
Gospel, that is to say, Good News (Rom 1:16). It was fully announced
and declared to the world by Jesus Christ (John 15:15) and the
Apostles (John 17:8; 2 Cor. 5:19,20), and faithfully recorded by the
Evangelists (Eph. 2:20; 1 Pet 1:25) so as to prevent the wiles and
craftiness of Satan who, without this, would have more easily put
forward to men his dreams under the name of the gospel; however, he
has not entirely failed to do so, by the just vengeance of God who has
been provoked to anger against the men who, in their accustomed
manner, have always preferred darkness to light. And when we say that
the Apostles and Evangelists have faithfully recorded all the doctrine
of the Gospel, we understand three points:

1. They have truly added nothing of their own as far as the substance
of the doctrine is concerned (Col. 1:28; 2 Tim 3:16,17), but they have
obeyed with precision and simplicity what the Lord had said to them:
"Go, preach all that I have commanded you" (Matt 28:20); and St. Paul,
in writing to the Corinthians, confesses that he does so (1 Cor.
11:23).

2. They have omitted nothing of that which is necessary to salvation.
For, otherwise, they would have been disloyal to their commission
which is not possible. And we see also St. Paul (Acts 20:27; Gal 1:9)
and St. Peter (1 Pet 1:25) testify how conscientious they have been
and how particular in this area (John 15:15; 16:13). That is why St.
Jerome, writing on this subject, says, Chatter and babbling must not
be believed without the authority of Holy Scripture." And St.
Augustine says even more clearly, "It is true that the Lord Jesus did
many things which have not all been written down; for the Evangelist
himself testifies that Jesus Christ said and did much that has not
been written down. But God has chosen to have written down those
things which are sufficient for the salvation of those who believe.
(John 20 :30- 31)

3. What they have written, is written in such a way that the most
uncultured and most ignorant in the world, if it is only held out to
them, can learn there what is necessary for their salvation (1 Cor.
1:26,27). For otherwise, why would the Gospel have been put in written
form in a language which everyone was then able to understand (1 Cor.
14:6-40), and even in the most familiar and popular manner of speaking
which it had been possible to choose (1 Cor. 2:1). That is why St.
Paul said that if the Gospel was hidden, it was hidden to those who
were perishing and whose mind the god of this world had blinded, that
is to say, the unbelievers (2 Cor. 4:3). And, indeed, the experience
of all times has shown that God has not called the most wise and most
learned, but, on the contrary, mostly of the most ignorant of the
world (Is 29:14; Luke 10:21; 1 Cor. 1:26,27; 3:18); so far from the
truth is it, that He wished to hide or cover His doctrine so that it
should be understood by no-one.

We draw, then, two conclusions from this discourse which are very
useful to what we are discussing:

The first is, that it is not necessary to reckon as Gospel anything
which men have added to the Word of God written, that is to say, the
doctrine contained in the books of the Old and New Testament; but that
all additions are merely superstitions and a corruption of the only
true Gospel of our Lord (Matt 15:9); St. Paul, has also spoken of this
(Gal 1:8-9; 2 Tim 3:16,17). And St. Jerome wrote on this subject,
"What is said without the authority of Holy Scripture is also easily
set aside, as has been said."

The second conclusion is that those who say that it only belongs to
certain persons to read Scripture, and who, for this reason, do not
want it to be translated into the common language, for fear that
simple women and other people may read it (Rom 1:14; Gal 3:28; Matt
11:28), are the true antichrists, and instruments of Satan (Matt
23:13); they are afraid that their abuses be discovered by the coming
of the light.



The manner in which the Gospel includes, in substance, the books of
the Old Testament

Moreover, by this word Gospel we are far from meaning what is commonly
called such, i.e., certain extracts which are disconnected without
reason, neither discourses from the books of the four Evangelists or
from the Epistles of St. Paul. On the contrary, we understand under
this word Gospel, not only all of the New Testament but also all that
has been promised or predicted in the Old Testament on the subject of
Jesus Christ (Acts 26:22-23; 28:23 John 5:39; Rom 1:2).

For, as we have already said, the Gospel is the only means by which
from the beginning of the world, God has always saved His elect (Heb.
13:8; Acts 4:12). That is why, as Moses declares (Gen 3:15), God began
to announce it to the world from the sin of Adam, although it was
manifested and preached clearly, a long time afterwards, by Jesus
Christ Himself in Person, and by His Apostles (Rom 1: 1-6; 16:25, 26).

Thus, to summarize, we call Gospel the Good News which, from the
beginning, and by His grace and mercy alone, God has announced to His
Church: those who, by faith, embrace Jesus Christ shall partake of
eternal life in Him (Rom 3:21, 22; John 6:40).



How what we say about the authority of the written Word must be
understood: Why it is necessary that it be translated into all
languages

When we say that the Gospel, written and recorded in the manner which
God has given us, is the sole ordinary means which God uses to save
men (that is why this Word is called The Word of Life and of
reconciliation; John 6:68; Acts 5:20; Phil 2:16); we do not stop at
the syllables, nor at the paper and ink, nor at a Gospel hung by the
neck, or pronounced only as the charmers pronounce their charms, nor
at a well patterned book, or worshipped with incense or other
fineries. Let us never displease God by approving such sorceries and
sacrileges.

But, in the first place, we close the door to all these fantastic
notions which the Devil has made use of, in all times, to corrupt men.

And then, we hear the Gospel well and duly preached and expounded, so
as to better understand the substance of it (Rom 10:8; 1 Pet 1:25), to
put it in the heart where, by faith, it can produce the fruits of true
repentance (Matt 13:23; Acts 16:14). The Apostles show this clearly.
When Jesus Christ sent them out, He did not say to them, "Go, read the
Gospel in an unknown tongue, and worship the book in which it is
written." but He said to them, "Go and preach the Gospel to every
creature." (Matt 28:19). 1 leave aside the remonstrances that St. Paul
makes to the Corinthians when he speaks of the abuse that those
committed in taking pleasure in hearing foreign languages ring out in
the Church of God, without any prophet to explain what was said (1
Cor. 14). But how shall anyone believe without having heard, seeing
that faith comes from what is heard, as St. Paul says (Rom 10:17)? And
how shall anyone hear it when, far from being duly expounded, it is
chanted in an unknown language (1 Cor. 14:9, 16-28)? How also shall
anyone be established in the holy and true doctrine, comforted amid so
many and various temptations, warned to resist false doctrines (Rom
15:4; 2 Tim 3:16), without meditating night and day in the Word of God
(Ps. 1:2), and examining carefully the passages of Holy Scripture
(Acts 17:11; John 5:39). Thus has it always been done in the Church,
until the Devil, through the just punishment of God, removed this
light to bring in his darkness, without anyone perceiving it. St.
Peter is a witness for this, when writing to all believers, he
commends the diligence with which they should take heed to hear the
word of the prophets (2 Pet 1: 19,20). For he knew that the word which
the Lord had said to him, "Feed my sheep." (John 21:15-17), must be
heard from the preaching of the Word of Life. St. Paul, also,
expounded the same thing and practised it (Acts 20:27,28).

However, we do not say that it is permitted to everyone to be a
teacher in the Church, and to expound the Holy Scriptures; for this
office belongs, as we shall soon say more fully, to those who are
called and lawfully ordained to do it (Rom. 10:15). But we say that
everyone must read the Scriptures, and have the knowledge of them to
confirm what has been expounded well in the Church, and to reject the
false doctrine of false pastors. We say that the reading of the Holy
Scriptures, -- adding what is necessary, i.e. the pure preaching and
exposition of them: it is for this that teachers and pastors are
ordained in the Church (1 Cor. 4:2; 2 Cor. 5:19,20), and not to re-
sacrifice Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:18) or to howl in a language unknown
to the people (1 Cor. 14:28) --, is far from committing heresy; on the
contrary, there is no other means of extirpating heresies (2 Tim.
3:15-17). And whoever prevents the reading of the Scriptures takes
away, at the same time, from the poor people the only means of
consolation (Rom. 15:4) and salvation (Luke 1:77; Acts 13:26; Eph.
1:13).



How the Holy Spirit uses the external preaching of the gospel to
create faith in the heart of the elect, and to harden the reprobate

In the same way as the external preaching of the Gospel is an odour of
death for the rebels who harden themselves, so is it an odour of life
for the children of God (2 Cor. 2:15,16). Not that this force and
power to save resides in the sound of the word, or that it comes from
the energy of him who preaches (1 Cor. 3:7-8). But the Holy Spirit,
whose office we are describing, uses this external preaching as a pipe
or channel; He comes then to pierce to the depth of the soul, as the
apostle says (Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet 1:23), so as to give by His grace and
goodness alone, understanding to the children of God that they may be
able to perceive and comprehend this high mystery of their salvation
through Jesus Christ (Acts 16:14; Eph. 1: 18,19). Then, He also
corrects their judgement so that they approve, with wisdom from God,
what sense and reason used to think was folly (1 Cor. 2:6-16).
Moreover he corrects and changes their will so that, with ardent
affection, they embrace and receive the sole remedy which is offered
in Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:29; Acts 13:48) against the despair into
which, without this, the preaching of the Law would necessarily bring
them (Eph. 2:1,4,5).

This then is how the Holy Spirit, by the preaching of the Gospel,
heals the wound which the preaching of the Law has uncovered and made
worse (Rom. 6:14). This, I say, is how the Holy Spirit, by the
preaching of the Gospel, creates in us the gift of faith which comes,
at the same time, to take hold of an that is necessary for salvation
in Jesus Christ; this is what we have shown above.



The other fruit of the preaching of the law, once the preaching of the
gospel has effectually done its work

Among the effects that Jesus Christ produces when He dwells in us, we
have shown, and this is not the least, that He creates in us a pure
heart (Ps. 51:10) to know (Jer. 24:7), to will and to do what is of
God (Phil 2:13); previously we were slaves in sin (Rom 6:22), enemies
of God (Eph. 2:12), incapable even of thinking anything good (2 Cor.
3:5).

Thus, when our disposition has been changed, the preaching of the Law
begins also to change its effect in us, such that instead of
terrifying us, it consoles us (1 John 2:17; 2 Pet 1: 10,11); instead
of showing us how near our damnation is, it serves us as a guide to
teach us the good works (Jer. 31:33; Rom 7:22) in which God has
purposed we shall walk (Eph. 2:10); finally, instead of being an
unpleasant and unbearable yoke, it becomes pleasant and light to us
(Matt 11:30). There remains with us only one regret: that of not being
able to obey it perfectly, as we wish to do, on account of the remnant
of our corruption which battles against the Spirit (Rom 7:22,23). But
all this regret does not drive us to despair, but rather drives us to
pray ardently to our Father who strengthens us more and more (Rom
8:23-26). Faith, which is the testimony of the Spirit of God crying in
our hearts (Rom 8:15), indeed assures us that the curse of the Law has
been blotted out by the blood of Jesus Christ to whom it unites us
(Rom 8:1); moreover, the same faith also assures us that the Spirit
shall conquer, however long He tarries (Rom 6:14), and even death
shall be the means of our victory (John 5:24; 1 Cor. 15:26,54; Heb
2:14). Thus is brought to completion in us, by degrees, the remainder
of true repentance, which comes from true conversion; it begins with
contrition, or feeling of sin, and progresses by amendment of all that
is in the man, visible and invisible (1 Thes. 5:23).

That is also why we conclude that this leads every true penitent to
confess his fault before him whom it concerns, that is to say, before
those who have been offended, and even before the whole assembly of
the Church, if that is necessary. This confession must be accompanied,
according to the measure in which this is possible, with restitution
and satisfaction towards one's neighbour, for, without this,
repentance can only be feigned and counterfeit. Thus, it is easy to
see that we do not reject, but, on the contrary, require as necessary
to salvation the true confession which has been ordained of God.
Nevertheless, we have no desire to torment consciences by auricular
confession (as it is called), which men have invented, in place of
true confession and repentance, nor to establish towards God any other
satisfaction than the sole satisfaction of Jesus Christ.



The second means which the Holy Spirit uses to enable us to enjoy
Jesus Christ, and why the Lord has never been content solely with the
preaching of His word.

We have said that the Sacraments are the other means, the other
instrument by which the Holy Spirit applies to us all that is
necessary for our salvation. But, since by this word is generally
understood all the signs by which any sacred and spiritual thing is
declared to us, it is necessary, first of an, to limit the meaning of
the word.

Therefore, we must understand that our God, who is perfectly merciful,
in using our very poor and miserable nature as a means to better
manifest His goodness and long suffering, has not been content to
simply make known to us and to show us, as it were from a distance,
the means by which it has pleased Him to save us. Nevertheless, even
in this, He uses incomprehensible gentleness and compassion in
informing us of His will through men similar to ourselves (Deut.
18:15; Phil 2:7; 2 Cor. 5:19,20), and, what is more, stammers, so to
speak, with us as nurses do with their little children (1 'Mess 2:7).
But, in addition, to crown His infinite goodness, He has willed to add
to the preaching of His Word certain actions which are designed to
compel the most uneducated and stubborn in the world to believe more
and more that God is not mocking them in offering them eternal life by
this most wondrous means -- the death of His own Son. Thus, by such
signs and actions, all their senses are driven to consent to the
doctrine of the Gospel, as if they were already fully enjoying the
salvation which is promised to them. In the same way, we see (if it is
proper to make a comparison between affairs in the world and the
incomprehensible goodness of God) that, when judicially the possession
or ownership of something is awarded to us, certain ceremonies and
actions will be used in the act of taking possession or in the
execution of a warrant, to assure us and to testify to others that
such and such belongs to us. Even in our civil affairs, although a
lawyer has signed a contract and appended the name of the witnesses,
in addition to all this, the seal of the office where the contract was
drawn up will be affixed, so as to render the contract more valid and
authentic (Rom 4:11).

Thus, from the beginning, our Lord God was not content with announcing
to Adam the grace by which He had purposed to save His Church through
His Son; He willed to add thereto sacrifices, as living figures of the
future sacrifice of Jesus Christ, to strengthen the faith of the
children of God in the redemption which they were awaiting (Heb.
11:4). Then afterwards, renewing this covenant of grace and of mercy
to Abraham, He added thereto the Sacrament of circumcision (Gen
17:10,11). Finally, at the time of Moses, He added thereto the
Sacrament of the Passover Lamb and many other ceremonies (Ex. 12);
these were Sacraments representing to them what Jesus Christ would
accomplish in His time, that is to say, all the mystery of their
salvation: the Apostle declares this amply in the Epistle to the
Hebrews.

But when the time appointed by God arrived, Jesus Christ, by His
coming, put an end to all that which had prefigured His coming. He put
an end to the shadows and Old Testament Sacraments and brought to the
world another greater clarity so that, henceforth, men might worship
God with more pure and spiritual service, as approaching more. closely
the nature of God who is Spirit (John 4:21-25). However, having still
regard to our frail and dull nature, He thought well to add some
Sacraments and external signs to the preaching of this eternal Word,
to better nourish and support our faith. For, although Jesus Christ
has already acquitted us by His death, yet, while we are below, we
possess the Heavenly Kingdom only by hope (Rom 8:24; 1 Cor. 13:9); it
is needful that we be supported to grow in this and persevere to the
end (Eph. 4:15).




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was made available on the internet via REFORMATION INK
(www.markers.com/ink). Refer any correspondence to Shane Rosenthal:
ReformationInk at mac.com (connect and write as @mac.com -- when I
connect them I get a lot of junk mail).

ÿÿÿ

http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/tblawgospel.htm
duke
2010-07-22 18:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
Post by RWKnapp
to them that took the Name of Jesus and accepted
Jesus as the Saviour the Messiah as promised.
But you make a special effort to reject his teachings.
vince garcia
2010-07-22 20:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.

1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
to them that took the Name of Jesus and accepted
Jesus as the Saviour the Messiah as promised.
But you make a special effort to reject his teachings.
duke
2010-07-23 12:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And further scripture says that he is expiation for sin.

1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

If you don't die to sin and live for righteousness, there is no sacrifice
for sin left, but only the fires of hell (Heb 10:26-27). And when you fail
and you WILL fail because only Jesus avoided sin (Heb 4:15), he gave us the
sacrament of confession to ask God to forgive and absolve us of our sin.
(John 20:22-23).

Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Post by vince garcia
You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.
No, it's not. He atoned for the sins of man - meaning that, by his
obedience to his Father, Jesus pleased God who accepted his Son's actions
and hence made allowances for mankind to seek out his salvation thru his
own repentance and obedience to God.
Post by vince garcia
1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement.
vince garcia
2010-07-23 16:57:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And further scripture says that he is expiation for sin.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
If you don't die to sin and live for righteousness, there is no sacrifice
for sin left, but only the fires of hell (Heb 10:26-27). And when you fail
and you WILL fail because only Jesus avoided sin (Heb 4:15), he gave us the
sacrament of confession to ask God to forgive and absolve us of our sin.
(John 20:22-23).
Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Post by vince garcia
You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.
No, it's not.
i'm not sure i get your meaning. are you splitting hairs? The bible
wasn't written in english, so there is no such thing as the word "paid"
in it. But the thought is right there. To be ransomed implies payment

He atoned for the sins of man - meaning that, by his
Post by duke
obedience to his Father, Jesus pleased God who accepted his Son's actions
and hence made allowances for mankind to seek out his salvation thru his
own repentance and obedience to God.
That sounds incomplete, and I'm not sure is correct. It's not only
because Jesus lived an obedient life that He is an appropriate
sacrifice. He atoned with His BLOOD, and he is a propitiary sacrifice to
us through faith in his blood. Not by His living an obedient life, and
the blood just sort of comes with that
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement.
ransomed = a payment made on behalf of someone to rescue them from
bondage
duke
2010-07-25 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And further scripture says that he is expiation for sin.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
If you don't die to sin and live for righteousness, there is no sacrifice
for sin left, but only the fires of hell (Heb 10:26-27). And when you fail
and you WILL fail because only Jesus avoided sin (Heb 4:15), he gave us the
sacrament of confession to ask God to forgive and absolve us of our sin.
(John 20:22-23).
Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Post by vince garcia
You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.
No, it's not.
i'm not sure i get your meaning. are you splitting hairs? The bible
wasn't written in english, so there is no such thing as the word "paid"
in it. But the thought is right there. To be ransomed implies payment
No, not splitting hairs. Atonement/expiation is not the same as "paid
for".

The expiation in the bible is clearly one of Jesus pleasing God such that
God will now consider redemption from sin and restoration of souls. And
that judgment of us comes in the way we change ourselves to follow in his
Son's footsteps.

What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins. That is not what the bible
says. People that believe that are digging the hole to hell deeper and
deeper with each passing day.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He atoned for the sins of man - meaning that, by his
obedience to his Father, Jesus pleased God who accepted his Son's actions
and hence made allowances for mankind to seek out his salvation thru his
own repentance and obedience to God.
That sounds incomplete, and I'm not sure is correct. It's not only
because Jesus lived an obedient life that He is an appropriate
sacrifice. He atoned with His BLOOD, and he is a propitiary sacrifice to
us through faith in his blood. Not by His living an obedient life, and
the blood just sort of comes with that
Yet why did he atone with his blood? Are you suggesting that just because
he died on the cross that all is well with us now? Now that's a quick trip
to satanville for all eternity for those that believe that.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement.
ransomed = a payment made on behalf of someone to rescue them from
bondage
Past bondage, yes - if they repent and seek forgiveness, but not future
bondage.
vince garcia
2010-07-25 17:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And further scripture says that he is expiation for sin.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
If you don't die to sin and live for righteousness, there is no sacrifice
for sin left, but only the fires of hell (Heb 10:26-27). And when you fail
and you WILL fail because only Jesus avoided sin (Heb 4:15), he gave us the
sacrament of confession to ask God to forgive and absolve us of our sin.
(John 20:22-23).
Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Post by vince garcia
You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.
No, it's not.
i'm not sure i get your meaning. are you splitting hairs? The bible
wasn't written in english, so there is no such thing as the word "paid"
in it. But the thought is right there. To be ransomed implies payment
No, not splitting hairs. Atonement/expiation is not the same as "paid
for".
The expiation in the bible is clearly one of Jesus pleasing God such that
God will now consider redemption from sin and restoration of souls. And
that judgment of us comes in the way we change ourselves to follow in his
Son's footsteps.
That doesn't sound right. That sounds like earning salvation at least
partly through works, hidden amidst some reverential language.
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.

BUT...

You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH. And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.


That is not what the bible
Post by duke
says. People that believe that are digging the hole to hell deeper and
deeper with each passing day.
some are, yes. But the statement is still true.

When Jesus atoned ror sin on the cross, he atoned for the sin of Adam as
the second Adam, and it is from Adam's one sin that all subsequent sin
was birthed from. In overturning and atoning for the sin of adam, every
sin that would ever follow was also automatically atoned for.

But it's always true:


rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them
which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his
goodness [thru faith, obviously, as the next verse shows]: otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, IF they ___abide not still in unbelief___, shall be
grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He atoned for the sins of man - meaning that, by his
obedience to his Father, Jesus pleased God who accepted his Son's actions
and hence made allowances for mankind to seek out his salvation thru his
own repentance and obedience to God.
That sounds incomplete, and I'm not sure is correct. It's not only
because Jesus lived an obedient life that He is an appropriate
sacrifice. He atoned with His BLOOD, and he is a propitiary sacrifice to
us through faith in his blood. Not by His living an obedient life, and
the blood just sort of comes with that
Yet why did he atone with his blood? Are you suggesting that just because
he died on the cross that all is well with us now?
Yes--if you're in the covenant of faith


13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh
by the blood of Christ.


Now that's a quick trip
Post by duke
to satanville for all eternity for those that believe that.
not so.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement.
ransomed = a payment made on behalf of someone to rescue them from
bondage
Past bondage, yes - if they repent and seek forgiveness, but not future
bondage.
Not "once saved, always saved," i agree
duke
2010-07-26 12:24:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
The body that God Almighty came in the flesh so He could pay for ALL
the sins of the world
Where does the scripture say that Jesus paid for all the sins of the world?
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the
Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
And further scripture says that he is expiation for sin.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
If you don't die to sin and live for righteousness, there is no sacrifice
for sin left, but only the fires of hell (Heb 10:26-27). And when you fail
and you WILL fail because only Jesus avoided sin (Heb 4:15), he gave us the
sacrament of confession to ask God to forgive and absolve us of our sin.
(John 20:22-23).
Welcome to the Catholic Church.
Post by vince garcia
You hung up on the word "paid"? The meaning is the same.
No, it's not.
i'm not sure i get your meaning. are you splitting hairs? The bible
wasn't written in english, so there is no such thing as the word "paid"
in it. But the thought is right there. To be ransomed implies payment
No, not splitting hairs. Atonement/expiation is not the same as "paid
for".
The expiation in the bible is clearly one of Jesus pleasing God such that
God will now consider redemption from sin and restoration of souls. And
that judgment of us comes in the way we change ourselves to follow in his
Son's footsteps.
That doesn't sound right. That sounds like earning salvation at least
partly through works, hidden amidst some reverential language.
Scripture says Jewish works do not work. Scripture says that works of the
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.

But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.

And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell. That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be". There is no saving faith for those
that ignore the teachings of Jesus. James 2:14-26.
Post by vince garcia
That is not what the bible
Post by duke
says. People that believe that are digging the hole to hell deeper and
deeper with each passing day.
some are, yes. But the statement is still true.
When Jesus atoned ror sin on the cross, he atoned for the sin of Adam as
the second Adam, and it is from Adam's one sin that all subsequent sin
was birthed from. In overturning and atoning for the sin of adam, every
sin that would ever follow was also automatically atoned for.
rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them
which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his
goodness [thru faith, obviously, as the next verse shows]: otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, IF they ___abide not still in unbelief___, shall be
grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He atoned for the sins of man - meaning that, by his
obedience to his Father, Jesus pleased God who accepted his Son's actions
and hence made allowances for mankind to seek out his salvation thru his
own repentance and obedience to God.
That sounds incomplete, and I'm not sure is correct. It's not only
because Jesus lived an obedient life that He is an appropriate
sacrifice. He atoned with His BLOOD, and he is a propitiary sacrifice to
us through faith in his blood. Not by His living an obedient life, and
the blood just sort of comes with that
Yet why did he atone with his blood? Are you suggesting that just because
he died on the cross that all is well with us now?
Yes--if you're in the covenant of faith
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh
by the blood of Christ.
Now that's a quick trip
Post by duke
to satanville for all eternity for those that believe that.
not so.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Atonement.
ransomed = a payment made on behalf of someone to rescue them from
bondage
Past bondage, yes - if they repent and seek forgiveness, but not future
bondage.
Not "once saved, always saved," i agree
vince garcia
2010-07-27 11:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law


Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.
But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.
I'll cautiously agree, tho I suspect you have some wrong doctrine
somewhere in that
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.

So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin


That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
Post by duke
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point






There is no saving faith for those
Post by duke
that ignore the teachings of Jesus. James 2:14-26.
don't quote james without pointing out he was specifically writing only
to jews, and not gentile believers
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-07-27 15:36:12 UTC
Permalink
Old Testament:

De 6:5 - And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.


Le 19:18 -Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the
children of thy people,
but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am
the LORD.


New Testament:

Joh 3:16 -For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.



Ro 10:9 -That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised
him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.


Jim

Mt 13:46 -Who, when he had found one pearl of great price,
went and sold all that he had,
and bought it.
duke
2010-07-27 16:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill. He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.
But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.
I'll cautiously agree, tho I suspect you have some wrong doctrine
somewhere in that
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.

Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
Post by vince garcia
There is no saving faith for those
Post by duke
that ignore the teachings of Jesus. James 2:14-26.
don't quote james without pointing out he was specifically writing only
to jews, and not gentile believers
Sad that one would think that Jesus treated Jews differently than new
Christians. You need to read Mat 25:31-46 for better understanding.
vince garcia
2010-07-28 00:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
really? Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor as onself in the 10
commandments?

Chapter/verse
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.

He made it possible (again) for you to be
Post by duke
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.
But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.
I'll cautiously agree, tho I suspect you have some wrong doctrine
somewhere in that
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.

I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Post by duke
Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
no mention of priests
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
There is no saving faith for those
Post by duke
that ignore the teachings of Jesus. James 2:14-26.
don't quote james without pointing out he was specifically writing only
to jews, and not gentile believers
Sad that one would think that Jesus treated Jews differently than new
Christians. You need to read Mat 25:31-46 for better understanding.
You need to understand his words in a JEWISH context, not a gentile one.
Ditto for hebrews.
duke
2010-07-29 17:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
really? Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor as onself in the 10
commandments?
Chapter/verse
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Recognizing that the 10 commandments are revealed as general statements,
the wording is expanded in scripture. And to carry it a step further,
note:

John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.
No, it's not. Jesus is expiation for sins.

1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

Our part is to die to sins and live for righteousness. And furthermore:

Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge
of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
It means that God ended salvation with the sin of mankind as seen in A&E.
With the death of Jesus on the cross, God accepted his actions in atonement
for sin and restored salvation of souls.

A&E caused mankind to lose salvation. This is the act of man. And a new
man in Jesus gave it back to us. Now it's up to you and I to do our part.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.
But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.
I'll cautiously agree, tho I suspect you have some wrong doctrine
somewhere in that
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.
And Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
As long as you can't differentiate between the works of the hands by the
boastful Jews, and the works of the heart by Christians, you'll never
understand. Mat 25:31-46, James 2:14-26.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Thinking about it is not the same as following thru with it. We are
called by God to be transformed from being sinners to being like Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
no mention of priests
The first 14 were called apostles. John 20:22-23.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
I'm not the one suggesting "saved thru faith, thru scripture" when you
won't even follow the teachings of Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Paul couldn't demand others be turned over to satan.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
There is no saving faith for those
Post by duke
that ignore the teachings of Jesus. James 2:14-26.
don't quote james without pointing out he was specifically writing only
to jews, and not gentile believers
Sad that one would think that Jesus treated Jews differently than new
Christians. You need to read Mat 25:31-46 for better understanding.
You need to understand his words in a JEWISH context, not a gentile one.
Ditto for hebrews.
And I don't question what Jesus clearly said, my recognizing that it
applies to all of us.
vince garcia
2010-07-30 00:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
really? Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor as onself in the 10
commandments?
Chapter/verse
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Ok i'm going to repeat it: Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor
as onself in the 10 commandments?

Chapter/verse

Answer: IT ISN'T!!!!!!!! It is in the body of the law, and NOT the 10
comamdnments.
Post by duke
Recognizing that the 10 commandments are revealed as general statements,
the wording is expanded in scripture.
Those aren't general statements. They are commandments from the law




And to carry it a step further,
Post by duke
John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.
No, it's not. Jesus is expiation for sins.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge
of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
still heresy. Jesus paid the price, as even catholcism affirms.

"Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God. When Jesus
died and rose He paid the price for our sins. "
--Fr Mike Manning
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
It means that God ended salvation with the sin of mankind as seen in A&E.
With the death of Jesus on the cross, God accepted his actions in atonement
for sin and restored salvation of souls.
A&E caused mankind to lose salvation. This is the act of man. And a new
man in Jesus gave it back to us. Now it's up to you and I to do our part.
The words are fine. The meaning is what I am concerned about
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
What I'm trying to emphasize is the fatal error of the many that think that
Jesus paid for their past, and FUTURE, sins.
But you're wrong. Jesus Has atoned for ALL sin, past, present, and
future.
Atoned - yes, in that his death on the cross was sufficient for God to
reinstate salvation of souls free of sins of man.
But eternal salvation in heaven - noooooooooo. Jesus specifically advised
that, to just be so much as his disciple, we must repent of our sin nature,
pick up our own cross, and follow him in service and love of Father and
mankind.
I'll cautiously agree, tho I suspect you have some wrong doctrine
somewhere in that
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.
And Jesus.
Jesus did not address a perverted distortion of what evangelical
Christianity teaches
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
As long as you can't differentiate between the works of the hands by the
boastful Jews, and the works of the heart by Christians, you'll never
understand. Mat 25:31-46, James 2:14-26.
No differenece. Neither can save you from your sins. Only faith can save
you. Only faith can keep you.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Thinking about it is not the same as following thru with it.
Take it up w/Jesus. HE says it is!



We are
Post by duke
called by God to be transformed from being sinners to being like Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
no mention of priests
The first 14 were called apostles. John 20:22-23.
apostles and pastors are never called priests, except as all believers
are
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
I'm not the one suggesting "saved thru faith, thru scripture" when you
won't even follow the teachings of Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Paul couldn't demand others be turned over to satan.
Take it up w/him then. That's what he did.
duke
2010-07-30 20:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
really? Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor as onself in the 10
commandments?
Chapter/verse
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Ok i'm going to repeat it: Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor
as onself in the 10 commandments?
Chapter/verse
Answer: IT ISN'T!!!!!!!! It is in the body of the law, and NOT the 10
comamdnments.
Well, it's not in the body of the Levi law, because the Jews never
understood it. But I can give you the following.

Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Plus:

John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.

So I'll simply say that "love your neighbor as yourself" is implied in the
words of the commandments re: a) no killing, b) no adultery, c) no
stealing, d) no bearing false witness, e) no coveting of neighbor's wife,
and f) no coveting anything of your neighbors.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Recognizing that the 10 commandments are revealed as general statements,
the wording is expanded in scripture.
Those aren't general statements. They are commandments from the law
No, those are God's specific 10 commandments. The Levi law was devised by
the Jews to use as a guide on what honoring the big 10 meant, to be
measured, to include definitions and guidelines.

So I stand by my statement: Love your neighbor as yourself is inherent in
the big 10.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.
No, it's not. Jesus is expiation for sins.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge
of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
still heresy. Jesus paid the price, as even catholcism affirms.
Jesus paid the price for atonement, not your bill. Because Jesus then gave
his priests on the order of Melchizedek the authority to forgive/retain
sins to be so honored in heaven.

Our readiness to continue to sin is reflected in Jesus giving us the
sacrament of confession. Without the presence of the confessional, we
would be tempted to see ourselves as free of sin. In fact we would quickly
condemn our neighbor as our own "freedom from sin" causes us indignation
towards others whom we judge to be just that - sinners, but not us. And we
know that we will be judged just as we have judged.
Post by vince garcia
"Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God. When Jesus
died and rose He paid the price for our sins. "
--Fr Mike Manning
We're not discussing the beauty of his actions, but the ramifications.
Scripture is quick to point out that our transformation is required, to
turn from sin. James 2:14-26 well points our the meaning of faith without
deeds of the heart, and Heb 10:26-27 well shows Christians what happens if
they **wilfully** continue to sin.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
It means that God ended salvation with the sin of mankind as seen in A&E.
With the death of Jesus on the cross, God accepted his actions in atonement
for sin and restored salvation of souls.
A&E caused mankind to lose salvation. This is the act of man. And a new
man in Jesus gave it back to us. Now it's up to you and I to do our part.
The words are fine. The meaning is what I am concerned about
I have no idea what meaning you're talking about
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.
And Jesus.
Jesus did not address a perverted distortion of what evangelical
Christianity teaches
Heb 10:26-27 is very clear.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
As long as you can't differentiate between the works of the hands by the
boastful Jews, and the works of the heart by Christians, you'll never
understand. Mat 25:31-46, James 2:14-26.
No differenece. Neither can save you from your sins. Only faith can save
you. Only faith can keep you.
Yet without works of the heart (Mat 25), your faith is dead (James 2), you
are not a disciple of Jesus (Mat 10), and continued sin leads to the fires
of hell (Heb 10).

Jesus is the only way

John 14:6 (New International Version)
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me.
The reality of salvation exclusively through Jesus Christ is continuously
expounded throughout The Bible.

Acts 17:30-31.30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he
commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he
will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given
proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Thinking about it is not the same as following thru with it.
Take it up w/Jesus. HE says it is!
No reference.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
We are
called by God to be transformed from being sinners to being like Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
no mention of priests
The first 14 were called apostles. John 20:22-23.
apostles and pastors are never called priests, except as all believers
are
Priests on the order of Melchizedek are found in scripture. Pastor is not.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
I'm not the one suggesting "saved thru faith, thru scripture" when you
won't even follow the teachings of Jesus.
Good ducking.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Paul couldn't demand others be turned over to satan.
Take it up w/him then. That's what he did.
Personally, I believe Jesus is the only judge.
vince garcia
2010-07-30 21:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Scripture says Jewish works do not work.
Loving God and neighbor is part of the jewish works of the law
No, it's the 10 commandments from God.
really? Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor as onself in the 10
commandments?
Chapter/verse
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Ok i'm going to repeat it: Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor
as onself in the 10 commandments?
Chapter/verse
Answer: IT ISN'T!!!!!!!! It is in the body of the law, and NOT the 10
comamdnments.
Well, it's not in the body of the Levi law, because the Jews never
understood it. But I can give you the following.
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
So I'll simply say that "love your neighbor as yourself" is implied in the
words of the commandments re: a) no killing, b) no adultery, c) no
stealing, d) no bearing false witness, e) no coveting of neighbor's wife,
and f) no coveting anything of your neighbors.
And I'll simply say it is explicitly stated not in the 10 commandments,
but in the body of the full law.

Thus, it is a myth that "jesus quoted the 10 commandments". He quoted
from the WHOLE LAW.
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Recognizing that the 10 commandments are revealed as general statements,
the wording is expanded in scripture.
Those aren't general statements. They are commandments from the law
No, those are God's specific 10 commandments. The Levi law was devised by
the Jews to use as a guide on what honoring the big 10 meant, to be
measured, to include definitions and guidelines.
very good, that's at least an orthdox position to hold.


So keeping the other 603 is how you keep the 10
Post by duke
So I stand by my statement: Love your neighbor as yourself is inherent in
the big 10.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Scripture says that works of the
Post by duke
heart are required. Mat 25:31-46.
Is this a way of saying Jesus earned 99% of someone's salvation, but one
earns the last 1% of it through various deeds or obeying so-called
commamdnments?
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.
No, it's not. Jesus is expiation for sins.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge
of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
still heresy. Jesus paid the price, as even catholcism affirms.
Jesus paid the price for atonement, not your bill. Because Jesus then gave
his priests on the order of Melchizedek the authority to forgive/retain
sins to be so honored in heaven.
Our readiness to continue to sin is reflected in Jesus giving us the
sacrament of confession. Without the presence of the confessional, we
would be tempted to see ourselves as free of sin. In fact we would quickly
condemn our neighbor as our own "freedom from sin" causes us indignation
towards others whom we judge to be just that - sinners, but not us. And we
know that we will be judged just as we have judged.
Post by vince garcia
"Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God. When Jesus
died and rose He paid the price for our sins. "
--Fr Mike Manning
We're not discussing the beauty of his actions, but the ramifications.
Scripture is quick to point out that our transformation is required, to
turn from sin. James 2:14-26 well points our the meaning of faith without
deeds of the heart, and Heb 10:26-27 well shows Christians what happens if
they **wilfully** continue to sin.
That's all fine--but if you equate that with meritorious works that help
atone for our sin debt, that's the probllem
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
It means that God ended salvation with the sin of mankind as seen in A&E.
With the death of Jesus on the cross, God accepted his actions in atonement
for sin and restored salvation of souls.
A&E caused mankind to lose salvation. This is the act of man. And a new
man in Jesus gave it back to us. Now it's up to you and I to do our part.
The words are fine. The meaning is what I am concerned about
I have no idea what meaning you're talking about
see last statement
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.
And Jesus.
Jesus did not address a perverted distortion of what evangelical
Christianity teaches
Heb 10:26-27 is very clear.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
As long as you can't differentiate between the works of the hands by the
boastful Jews, and the works of the heart by Christians, you'll never
understand. Mat 25:31-46, James 2:14-26.
No differenece. Neither can save you from your sins. Only faith can save
you. Only faith can keep you.
Yet without works of the heart (Mat 25), your faith is dead (James 2),
yes. but the heresy is in seeing those as a participatory action in a
salvation process, rather than being fruit of the event of salvation




you
Post by duke
are not a disciple of Jesus (Mat 10), and continued sin leads to the fires
of hell (Heb 10).
Jesus is the only way
John 14:6 (New International Version)
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to
the Father except through me.
The reality of salvation exclusively through Jesus Christ is continuously
expounded throughout The Bible.
Acts 17:30-31.30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he
commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he
will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given
proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
And scripture well says that is we continue to sin at will after learning
of Jesus, then we have no sacrifice left for us, but only the fires of
hell.
yeah/no. You sin on a moment by moment basis, because you don't love God
or your neighbor with ALL your being at all times.
You forfeit heaven forever if you die with one mortal sin on your soul that
has not been forgiven and absolved.
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Thinking about it is not the same as following thru with it.
Take it up w/Jesus. HE says it is!
No reference.
you know it. If you don't, what are you doing commenting on the Bible?
It's right in the gospels at the beginning of His teachings

"But I tell you..."
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
We are
called by God to be transformed from being sinners to being like Jesus.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Life's a bitch, then you die. Heed those words above.
Post by vince garcia
So it's not just "sin", but rather unrepentant mortal sin
Post by duke
That says that if man doesn't clean up his act and go to confession,
then we can count on the flames.
Texhnically doesn't say that. It just says 'if we keep on sinning...'
"Keep on sinning" is the first one after your last confession to a priest.
no mention of priests
The first 14 were called apostles. John 20:22-23.
apostles and pastors are never called priests, except as all believers
are
Priests on the order of Melchizedek are found in scripture.
No they aren't. There is ONE melchizidekal priest. There can be only
one.
Post by duke
Pastor is not.
sure it is.
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed
you with knowledge and understanding .

Ephesians 4:11 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
I'm not the one suggesting "saved thru faith, thru scripture" when you
won't even follow the teachings of Jesus.
Good ducking.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Paul couldn't demand others be turned over to satan.
Take it up w/him then. That's what he did.
Personally, I believe Jesus is the only judge.
Well, then you contradict paul:

For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged
already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this
deed,
duke
2010-07-31 16:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Ok i'm going to repeat it: Where is the comamnd to love one's neighbor
as onself in the 10 commandments?
Chapter/verse
Answer: IT ISN'T!!!!!!!! It is in the body of the law, and NOT the 10
comamdnments.
Well, it's not in the body of the Levi law, because the Jews never
understood it. But I can give you the following.
Matthew 22:37-39 (New International Version)
37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'[a] 38This is the first and greatest
commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
John 13:34 (New International Version)
34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you
must love one another.
So I'll simply say that "love your neighbor as yourself" is implied in the
words of the commandments re: a) no killing, b) no adultery, c) no
stealing, d) no bearing false witness, e) no coveting of neighbor's wife,
and f) no coveting anything of your neighbors.
And I'll simply say it is explicitly stated not in the 10 commandments,
but in the body of the full law.
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
Post by vince garcia
Thus, it is a myth that "jesus quoted the 10 commandments". He quoted
from the WHOLE LAW.
No, his entire ministry was to set aside the Levi Law from the get go.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Recognizing that the 10 commandments are revealed as general statements,
the wording is expanded in scripture.
Those aren't general statements. They are commandments from the law
No, those are God's specific 10 commandments. The Levi law was devised by
the Jews to use as a guide on what honoring the big 10 meant, to be
measured, to include definitions and guidelines.
very good, that's at least an orthdox position to hold.
Well, if you review the levi law, that's what you'd see - measurements and
definitions to determine if a Jew is following the 10 commandments. A Jew
could tend to a sick animal on the Sabbath but not to an injured man. Work
was defined as carrying 3 fig leaves 1 mile, and was forbidden on the
Sabbath. And so on and so forth.
Post by vince garcia
So keeping the other 603 is how you keep the 10
Yes. but review them for yourself.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
So I stand by my statement: Love your neighbor as yourself is inherent in
the big 10.
Very good. Now you understand.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Jesus didn't pay your bill.
OK, that's heresy.
No, it's not. Jesus is expiation for sins.
1 Peter 2:24 (New International Version)
24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to
sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 10:26-27 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge
of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful
expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of
God.
still heresy. Jesus paid the price, as even catholcism affirms.
Jesus paid the price for atonement, not your bill. Because Jesus then gave
his priests on the order of Melchizedek the authority to forgive/retain
sins to be so honored in heaven.
Our readiness to continue to sin is reflected in Jesus giving us the
sacrament of confession. Without the presence of the confessional, we
would be tempted to see ourselves as free of sin. In fact we would quickly
condemn our neighbor as our own "freedom from sin" causes us indignation
towards others whom we judge to be just that - sinners, but not us. And we
know that we will be judged just as we have judged.
Post by vince garcia
"Catholics believe that salvation is a free gift from God. When Jesus
died and rose He paid the price for our sins. "
--Fr Mike Manning
We're not discussing the beauty of his actions, but the ramifications.
Scripture is quick to point out that our transformation is required, to
turn from sin. James 2:14-26 well points our the meaning of faith without
deeds of the heart, and Heb 10:26-27 well shows Christians what happens if
they **wilfully** continue to sin.
That's all fine--but if you equate that with meritorious works that help
atone for our sin debt, that's the probllem
There is no meritorious works suitable to God. The Jews clearly believed
it, but not Christians. But without works of the heart, which come about
because of our love of the Lord, you're not following him. Works of the
heart, not as demands but instead as acts of a merciful God, fall in the
category of clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, giving drink to the
thirsty.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
He made it possible (again) for you to be
saved basis your following him in obedience and love to the Father and to
your fellow man.
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, unless it's that you earn it
it in partnership with Christ by obeying commandments.
It means that God ended salvation with the sin of mankind as seen in A&E.
With the death of Jesus on the cross, God accepted his actions in atonement
for sin and restored salvation of souls.
A&E caused mankind to lose salvation. This is the act of man. And a new
man in Jesus gave it back to us. Now it's up to you and I to do our part.
The words are fine. The meaning is what I am concerned about
I have no idea what meaning you're talking about
see last statement
I have no clue as to which point you are trying to make.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Why? Where does anything say he paid for you and allows you to proceed at
will with sin in your life?
No one but you and kupp say that.
And Jesus.
Jesus did not address a perverted distortion of what evangelical
Christianity teaches
Heb 10:26-27 is very clear.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
I suspect you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and add your
own works into the mix.
As long as you can't differentiate between the works of the hands by the
boastful Jews, and the works of the heart by Christians, you'll never
understand. Mat 25:31-46, James 2:14-26.
No differenece. Neither can save you from your sins. Only faith can save
you. Only faith can keep you.
Yet without works of the heart (Mat 25), your faith is dead (James 2),
yes. but the heresy is in seeing those as a participatory action in a
salvation process, rather than being fruit of the event of salvation
The merits of the attitude in understanding that we are called to follow
Jesus is what counts.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
I'm glad you think that. Since thinking a lustful thought about someone
is adultery, how many mortal sins have you committed this week?
Thinking about it is not the same as following thru with it.
Take it up w/Jesus. HE says it is!
No reference.
you know it. If you don't, what are you doing commenting on the Bible?
It's right in the gospels at the beginning of His teachings
"But I tell you..."
Apparently you can't id the verse either. However, the commandments say
that we shall not covet out neighbors wife/goods/etc. To covet goes far
beyond lustful thought. To covet means to be consumed by, to forsake all
good judgment, in attempting to satisfy that lust.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
apostles and pastors are never called priests, except as all believers
are
Priests on the order of Melchizedek are found in scripture.
No they aren't. There is ONE melchizidekal priest. There can be only
one.
There is only one **HIGH** priest. The Catholic priesthood is exactly on
the order of Melchizedek.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Pastor is not.
Sure it is.
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed
you with knowledge and understanding .
I should have known. More OT. Why not become a Christian?
Post by vince garcia
Ephesians 4:11 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
Accepted.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
BUT...
You are kept in the benefit of that THRU FAITH.
THRU SCRIPTURE.
huh?? You're kept in a saved state by scripture???
Being taught what God expects.
you sound like a cultist, trying to hide his bad theology by a vague,
generalized statement.
I'm not the one suggesting "saved thru faith, thru scripture" when you
won't even follow the teachings of Jesus.
Good ducking.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
And if you scorn
repentance and persist in a life of (using a catholic term) mortal sin,
you are undertaking a course that is a cancer to your saving faith; and
you can indeed be lost.
More like "WILL" rather than "can be".
Can't say "will" because the point can be made that paul wanted a guy
handed over to satan for destruction of his physical life before he
reached a point of no return, tho he actually WAS comitting mortal sin
at that point
Paul was never in that business.
non sequitur
Paul couldn't demand others be turned over to satan.
Take it up w/him then. That's what he did.
Personally, I believe Jesus is the only judge.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged
already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this
deed,
Come on, vince. How about a reference. Goggle can't even find that one.
RWKnapp
2010-08-04 03:25:02 UTC
Permalink
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated.  Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
There is only one **HIGH** priest.  The Catholic priesthood is exactly on
the order of Melchizedek.  
Since when does the Catholic priesthood have children as all the OT
Kings and rulers did as well as the Priest in Melchizedek day? Seems
like you confused as the Catholic priesthood in nothing like or
exactly on the order of Melchizedek. See the verses.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and
wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Psalms 110:4 The LORD has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest
for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Your the one Duke that called me a Jew for following the Old
Testament, and here you try to use it to support the RCC.
Post by vince garcia
 Pastor is not.
Sure it is.
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed
you with knowledge and understanding .
I should have known.  More OT.  Why not become a Christian?
What a double standard, you just used the OT to support your
Melchizedek story, why not become a Christian Duke?

You should think before you post as what you said before does come
back to haunt you.
vince garcia
2010-08-05 12:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
paul EXPLICITLY refers to them as the law that we are dead to in rom 7:

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the
law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were
held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or the 'civil and
ceremonial law Jesus fulfilled at the cross'?

So I am dead to that law. Dead to the torah. Dead to the 10
comamndments. Dead to ANY list of commandments.

"You think think it's ok to steal and commit murder and adultery?"

No, you ignorant fool, whoever you are who thinks that:

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
grace? God forbid.

"Well, then you gotta keep it!"

No--not at all. You are FREED from keeping it, and freed from God's
using it as any sort of measuring rod to accept or reject you. What
you're not free to do is to use that freedom as a justification to
follow the sin the flesh longs for (gal 5:13), which is:

Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife,
seditions, heresies,
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which
I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which
do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (gal 5: 19-21)

NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THINGS LIKE NOT OBSERVING THE SABBATH, DUKE, OR
REJECTING THE KEEPING OF CATHOLIC RELIGIOUS ORDINANCES!


And IF you choose to yield to the desires of the flesh, you reap the
reward of sin (Gal 6:8)
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Pastor is not.
Sure it is.
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed
you with knowledge and understanding .
I should have known. More OT. Why not become a Christian?
What a double standard, you just used the OT to support your
Melchizedek story, why not become a Christian Duke?
a good question, he--and the messianics who read this, who deny they are
"Christians"--should consider
Post by RWKnapp
You should think before you post as what you said before does come
back to haunt you.
"Think"? That's asking a lot of him. He's trapped in religious bondage
that sounds good and looks good, but is simply a gilded cage.
duke
2010-08-05 16:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the
law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were
held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or the 'civil and
ceremonial law Jesus fulfilled at the cross'?
So I am dead to that law. Dead to the torah. Dead to the 10
comamndments. Dead to ANY list of commandments.
You best not be dead to the 10 commandments. Jesus well said that if you
want to enter eternal life, keep the 10 commandments. If you want to spend
all eternity in satanville, turn away from the big 10.
vince garcia
2010-08-05 17:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
wrong. HE WENT STRAIGHT TO ONE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS __YOU__SAY IS
STILL IN FORCE, JUST AS I SHOWED.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.

Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or is it in the
"levi parts"?
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the
law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were
held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or the 'civil and
ceremonial law Jesus fulfilled at the cross'?
So I am dead to that law. Dead to the torah. Dead to the 10
comamndments. Dead to ANY list of commandments.
You best not be dead to the 10 commandments.
You best BETTER be dead to them. Or make yourself a transgressor under
the "ministry of death", and a debtor to do the WHOLE LAW to be in right
standing with God.



Jesus well said that if you
Post by duke
want to enter eternal life, keep the 10 commandments. If you want to spend
all eternity in satanville, turn away from the big 10.
And that misunderstanding of the verse in matthew is right where false
cults always go. Then they do as you just did: Deny what paul said, and
impose a false theology upon him because his REAL theology destroys
their belief system

This is why so many catholics are damned. They think just like you, and
reject Christ's righteousness to rely on their own.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were BY THE
LAW, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.



7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, Thou shalt not covet.*
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment,* wrought in me all manner
of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment* came,
sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto
death.*

* That's not talking about the "levi parts", false teacher. That's
talking about the 10 commadnments you are damning yourself by in your
conscious refusal to be dead to them.
duke
2010-08-06 19:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
God's 10 commandments are God's commands. Ignore them and face satan.
Post by vince garcia
wrong. HE WENT STRAIGHT TO ONE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS __YOU__SAY IS
STILL IN FORCE, JUST AS I SHOWED.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
That's right. The 10 commandments of God are still there. The rest are
the Levi man made laws used to provide definitions and measurements to
ascertain that one was following the 10 commands.
Post by vince garcia
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or is it in the
"levi parts"?
Figure it out for yourself. Jesus said if you want to enter eternal live,
keep the commandments.
Post by vince garcia
Post by duke
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the
law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were
held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or the 'civil and
ceremonial law Jesus fulfilled at the cross'?
So I am dead to that law. Dead to the torah. Dead to the 10
comamndments. Dead to ANY list of commandments.
You best not be dead to the 10 commandments.
You best BETTER be dead to them.
If you're dead to the 10 commandments, you are booked to go south.
Post by vince garcia
Jesus well said that if you
Post by duke
want to enter eternal life, keep the 10 commandments. If you want to spend
all eternity in satanville, turn away from the big 10.
And that misunderstanding of the verse in matthew is right where false
cults always go.
You're toying with fire.
Post by vince garcia
Then they do as you just did: Deny what paul said, and
impose a false theology upon him because his REAL theology destroys
their belief system
Jesus and Paul agree.
Post by vince garcia
This is why so many catholics are damned. They think just like you, and
reject Christ's righteousness to rely on their own.
Do you actually think that God changes his tune?
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW
Levi law.
Post by vince garcia
* That's not talking about the "levi parts", false teacher. That's
talking about the 10 commadnments you are damning yourself by in your
conscious refusal to be dead to them.
Your turning from the word of God is getting you to a very hot place.
RWKnapp
2010-08-07 03:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated.  Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
God's 10 commandments are God's commands.  Ignore them and face satan.
Where does the these commandments given to the Jews, apply to them
that are not JEWS? Satan loves people to Ignore Gods word, then I
face JESUS and could care less what the Devil, Satan has to say or
want or his opinion. Why do you? Are you a Jew of the Old covenant?
duke
2010-08-07 16:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
Post by duke
Post by RWKnapp
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated.  Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
God's 10 commandments are God's commands.  Ignore them and face satan.
Where does the these commandments given to the Jews, apply to them
that are not JEWS?
Because they weren't given to the Jews, but to mankind. And it was Jesus
that stated clearly that if we want to inherit eternal life, keep God's
commandments.
John Fraser
2010-08-07 03:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Good morning Duke;

I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.

Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.

Cheers,
John
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 10:06:38 -0700, vince garcia
Post by vince garcia
On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 05:05:35 -0700, vince garcia
Post by vince garcia
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Only the Levi parts.
God's 10 commandments are God's commands. Ignore them and face satan.
Post by vince garcia
wrong. HE WENT STRAIGHT TO ONE OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS __YOU__SAY IS
STILL IN FORCE, JUST AS I SHOWED.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
That's right. The 10 commandments of God are still there. The rest are
the Levi man made laws used to provide definitions and measurements to
ascertain that one was following the 10 commands.
Post by vince garcia
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or is it in the
"levi parts"?
Figure it out for yourself. Jesus said if you want to enter eternal live,
keep the commandments.
Post by vince garcia
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the
law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were
held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness
of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not
known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had
said, THOU SHALT NOT COVET.
Is THOU SHALT NOT COVET in the 10 comamdnments, duke, or the 'civil and
ceremonial law Jesus fulfilled at the cross'?
So I am dead to that law. Dead to the torah. Dead to the 10
comamndments. Dead to ANY list of commandments.
You best not be dead to the 10 commandments.
You best BETTER be dead to them.
If you're dead to the 10 commandments, you are booked to go south.
Post by vince garcia
Jesus well said that if you
want to enter eternal life, keep the 10 commandments. If you want to spend
all eternity in satanville, turn away from the big 10.
And that misunderstanding of the verse in matthew is right where false
cults always go.
You're toying with fire.
Post by vince garcia
Then they do as you just did: Deny what paul said, and
impose a false theology upon him because his REAL theology destroys
their belief system
Jesus and Paul agree.
Post by vince garcia
This is why so many catholics are damned. They think just like you, and
reject Christ's righteousness to rely on their own.
Do you actually think that God changes his tune?
Post by vince garcia
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW
Levi law.
Post by vince garcia
* That's not talking about the "levi parts", false teacher. That's
talking about the 10 commadnments you are damning yourself by in your
conscious refusal to be dead to them.
Your turning from the word of God is getting you to a very hot place.
duke
2010-08-07 16:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.
They still are.
Post by John Fraser
Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.
You would think so, but then you find "Christians" that think abortion is
ok. And adultery is especially prevalent amongst the protest_er faith that
think that divorce and remarriage is ok.

I had a coworker who showed me a picture of his daughter for her 4th
marriage, all decked out in white complete with veil.
John Fraser
2010-08-10 02:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Good morning Duke;
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.
They still are.
Post by John Fraser
Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.
You would think so, but then you find "Christians" that think abortion is
ok. And adultery is especially prevalent amongst the protest_er faith that
think that divorce and remarriage is ok.
Absolutely. All people fall short of God's righteousness; none are
exempt and God owes us nothing. The sad part of your point is it renders
Christianity ineffective when arguing morals.
Post by duke
I had a coworker who showed me a picture of his daughter for her 4th
marriage, all decked out in white complete with veil.
It really doesn't matter what colour a bride wears; that is about
culture. In this case, white is associated with purity. Jesus pointed out
that if our hearts are far from God, then our morals are equally distant.
It should be that our will is to follow the Father's will. If so, the Devil
will flee. Otherwise, the Devil has far too much inflluence which is to
make us appear inept.

Same goes for our constant discussion over who is right. It only serves
to confuse others and they eventually depart to find another way. I say
that out of fact, not malice.

Cheers,
John
duke
2010-08-13 12:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.
They still are.
Post by John Fraser
Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.
You would think so, but then you find "Christians" that think abortion is
ok. And adultery is especially prevalent amongst the protest_er faith that
think that divorce and remarriage is ok.
Absolutely. All people fall short of God's righteousness; none are
exempt and God owes us nothing. The sad part of your point is it renders
Christianity ineffective when arguing morals.
God and Christianity are faith only.
Post by John Fraser
Post by duke
I had a coworker who showed me a picture of his daughter for her 4th
marriage, all decked out in white complete with veil.
It really doesn't matter what colour a bride wears; that is about
culture.
Well, that was my point - a good Christian, protest_ant lifestyle.
Post by John Fraser
In this case, white is associated with purity. Jesus pointed out
that if our hearts are far from God, then our morals are equally distant.
It should be that our will is to follow the Father's will. If so, the Devil
will flee. Otherwise, the Devil has far too much inflluence which is to
make us appear inept.
But is it not only a slight deviance from the word of God that becomes
embracing the act of the devil?
Post by John Fraser
Same goes for our constant discussion over who is right. It only serves
to confuse others and they eventually depart to find another way. I say
that out of fact, not malice.
Oh, I understand fully.
John Fraser
2010-08-13 16:32:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 00:48:36 -0300, "John Fraser"
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.
They still are.
Post by John Fraser
Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.
You would think so, but then you find "Christians" that think abortion is
ok. And adultery is especially prevalent amongst the protest_er faith that
think that divorce and remarriage is ok.
Absolutely. All people fall short of God's righteousness; none are
exempt and God owes us nothing. The sad part of your point is it renders
Christianity ineffective when arguing morals.
God and Christianity are faith only.
Post by John Fraser
I had a coworker who showed me a picture of his daughter for her 4th
marriage, all decked out in white complete with veil.
It really doesn't matter what colour a bride wears; that is about
culture.
Well, that was my point - a good Christian, protest_ant lifestyle.
Post by John Fraser
In this case, white is associated with purity. Jesus pointed out
that if our hearts are far from God, then our morals are equally distant.
It should be that our will is to follow the Father's will. If so, the Devil
will flee. Otherwise, the Devil has far too much inflluence which is to
make us appear inept.
But is it not only a slight deviance from the word of God that becomes
embracing the act of the devil?
I suppose that depends on whether one is Edmund Bonner.
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Same goes for our constant discussion over who is right. It only serves
to confuse others and they eventually depart to find another way. I say
that out of fact, not malice.
Oh, I understand fully.
Cheers,
John
duke
2010-08-14 12:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Fraser
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 00:48:36 -0300, "John Fraser"
Post by John Fraser
Good morning Duke;
I agree the Ten Commandments are important. In fact, they were a
yardstick by which all morals were measured.
They still are.
Post by John Fraser
Jesus summarized them with two commandments: Love the Lord thy God with
all your heart and strength, and love your neighbour as yourself. If you
can keep those two, you will have no problem keeping the Ten.
You would think so, but then you find "Christians" that think abortion is
ok. And adultery is especially prevalent amongst the protest_er faith that
think that divorce and remarriage is ok.
Absolutely. All people fall short of God's righteousness; none are
exempt and God owes us nothing. The sad part of your point is it renders
Christianity ineffective when arguing morals.
God and Christianity are faith only.
Post by John Fraser
I had a coworker who showed me a picture of his daughter for her 4th
marriage, all decked out in white complete with veil.
It really doesn't matter what colour a bride wears; that is about
culture.
Well, that was my point - a good Christian, protest_ant lifestyle.
Post by John Fraser
In this case, white is associated with purity. Jesus pointed out
that if our hearts are far from God, then our morals are equally distant.
It should be that our will is to follow the Father's will. If so, the Devil
will flee. Otherwise, the Devil has far too much inflluence which is to
make us appear inept.
But is it not only a slight deviance from the word of God that becomes
embracing the act of the devil?
I suppose that depends on whether one is Edmund Bonner.
I hope this means that you know it wasn't me, duke, that made that
statement.
Post by John Fraser
Post by duke
Post by John Fraser
Same goes for our constant discussion over who is right. It only serves
to confuse others and they eventually depart to find another way. I say
that out of fact, not malice.
Oh, I understand fully.
Cheers,
John
duke
2010-08-05 16:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated.  Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
Simple. The 10 commandments are the law of God. The Levi Laws provide
definitions and measurement standards to use to judge people and their
following God's laws.

The 10 commandments are still in force. The Levi laws are no more.
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
There is only one **HIGH** priest.  The Catholic priesthood is exactly on
the order of Melchizedek.  
Since when does the Catholic priesthood have children as all the OT
Kings and rulers did as well as the Priest in Melchizedek day?
Gee, I wonder if you really intended some intelligence in that question?
Post by RWKnapp
Seems
like you confused as the Catholic priesthood in nothing like or
exactly on the order of Melchizedek.
Another weird question.
Post by RWKnapp
See the verses.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and
wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Psalms 110:4 The LORD has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest
for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Your the one Duke that called me a Jew for following the Old
Testament, and here you try to use it to support the RCC.
Post by vince garcia
 Pastor is not.
Sure it is.
Jeremiah 3:15 KJV
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed
you with knowledge and understanding .
I should have known.  More OT.  Why not become a Christian?
What a double standard, you just used the OT to support your
Melchizedek story, why not become a Christian Duke?
Unlike you, we Catholic Christians follow Jesus. You just read about him.
And it sounds like you think Christians are the ones that follow the OT.
Post by RWKnapp
You should think before you post as what you said before does come
back to haunt you.
I have nothing to hide from. But you do.
Less religion, more light
2010-08-13 06:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
duke
2010-08-13 12:20:50 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:39:35 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
Yet Jesus said that if we want eternal life, keep the commandments.
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Less religion, more light
2010-08-14 01:41:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:39:35 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
Yet Jesus said that if we want eternal life, keep the commandments.
Did he use the word commandment?
No. All we have is translations and interpretations mixed with men's
legalistic fear based beliefs.
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-08-14 04:21:39 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 13, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:39:35 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
Yet Jesus said that if we want eternal life, keep the commandments.
Did he use the word commandment?
No. All we have is translations and interpretations mixed with men's
legalistic fear based beliefs.
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
Thus, your yiew of the Bible is from the mind
of a man, yourself.

Jim

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Less religion, more light
2010-08-14 06:48:09 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 13, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
Thus, your yiew of the Bible is from the mind
of a man, yourself.
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.

Would you rather accept the view of an uneducated person (home Bible
studier) or an educated one?
--
If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions.
duke
2010-08-14 12:56:23 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:48:09 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
On Aug 13, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
Thus, your yiew of the Bible is from the mind
of a man, yourself.
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching authority in
the Papacy. Mat 28.
Post by Less religion, more light
Would you rather accept the view of an uneducated person (home Bible
studier) or an educated one?
Less religion, more light
2010-08-14 23:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:48:09 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
On Aug 13, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
Thus, your yiew of the Bible is from the mind
of a man, yourself.
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching authority in
the Papacy. Mat 28.
You're referring of course to the infamous RCC and their human views.
Man, what a dupe. They really have you wrapped around their little fingers.
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Would you rather accept the view of an uneducated person (home Bible
studier) or an educated one?
duke
2010-08-15 14:03:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:53:54 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:48:09 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
On Aug 13, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
Thus, your yiew of the Bible is from the mind
of a man, yourself.
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know
them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching authority in
the Papacy. Mat 28.
You're referring of course to the infamous RCC and their human views.
Man, what a dupe. They really have you wrapped around their little fingers.
Well, Jesus the man will do that to you.
Less religion, more light
2010-08-15 21:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:53:54 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:48:09 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by j***@satx.rr.com
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he
know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching
authority in the Papacy. Mat 28.
You're referring of course to the infamous RCC and their human views.
Man, what a dupe. They really have you wrapped around their little fingers.
Well, Jesus the man will do that to you.
My friend, some day you too will learn the truth that the RCC actually had
little to do with Jesus and more to do with politics and control over the
people.
Why do you think Luther had to do what he did?
Check out what Jordan Maxwell says about the RCC. He knows them inside and
out.
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=HGFoTOGXO4iMvQPQ0K3-Aw&ved=0CCMQBSgA&q=Jordan+Maxwell+catholic+church&spell=1&fp=d515c4f91e7cd85d
--
If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions.
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-08-15 22:23:46 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 15, 4:54 pm, "Less religion, more light"
<***@optushome.com.au> wrote:

"If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions."

Isa 1:18 - Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson,
they shall be as wool.
Less religion, more light
2010-08-16 01:41:24 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 15, 4:54 pm, "Less religion, more light"
"If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions."
though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson,
they shall be as wool.
Did you have anything to say?
--
If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions.
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-08-16 02:37:53 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 15, 8:41 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
On Aug 15, 4:54 pm, "Less religion, more light"
"If you do not question, you will not find the truth.
Unfortunately the Christian version of God hates questions."
though your sins be as scarlet,
               they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like
crimson,
               they shall be as wool.
Did you have anything to say?
I guess you don't know how to
reason together.

How To Be Polemical
Without Being a Downright Nasty Person
Michael S. Horton
po-lem-ic (pelem'ik) n-1 an argument, dispute, etc., especially a
written one, that supports one opinion or body of ideas in opposition
to another (The New Scholastic Dictionary of American English).


http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=670&var3=searchresults&var4=Search&var5=how_to_be_polemical

Jim


Mt 7:6 - Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls before swine,
lest they trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.
duke
2010-08-16 21:56:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:54:36 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:53:54 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:48:09 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by j***@satx.rr.com
Jim
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the
Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he
know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Since Jesus is gone we have no other view.
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching
authority in the Papacy. Mat 28.
You're referring of course to the infamous RCC and their human views.
Man, what a dupe. They really have you wrapped around their little fingers.
Well, Jesus the man will do that to you.
My friend, some day you too will learn the truth that the RCC actually had
little to do with Jesus and more to do with politics and control over the
people.
Yet what I see the RCC doing is exactly in accord with the bible and the
word of God.
Post by Less religion, more light
Why do you think Luther had to do what he did?
Check out what Jordan Maxwell says about the RCC. He knows them inside and
out.
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=HGFoTOGXO4iMvQPQ0K3-Aw&ved=0CCMQBSgA&q=Jordan+Maxwell+catholic+church&spell=1&fp=d515c4f91e7cd85d
One guy said: Jordan Maxwell is unstable.
Less religion, more light
2010-08-16 23:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:54:36 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Yet he spent 3 years teaching, and then installed a teaching
authority in the Papacy. Mat 28.
You're referring of course to the infamous RCC and their human
views. Man, what a dupe. They really have you wrapped around their
little fingers.
Well, Jesus the man will do that to you.
My friend, some day you too will learn the truth that the RCC
actually had little to do with Jesus and more to do with politics
and control over the people.
Yet what I see the RCC doing is exactly in accord with the bible and
the word of God.
Of course you are speaking only from your own limited experience and
worldview.
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Why do you think Luther had to do what he did?
Check out what Jordan Maxwell says about the RCC. He knows them
inside and out.
http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&&sa=X&ei=HGFoTOGXO4iMvQPQ0K3-Aw&ved=0CCMQBSgA&q=Jordan+Maxwell+catholic+church&spell=1&fp=d515c4f91e7cd85d
One guy said: Jordan Maxwell is unstable.
Your opinion is noted. Do some study if you want to find out the truth.
--
For God so loved the world that he gave his only scapegoat, and the
scapegoat was killed and gave its blood, which is all that the ancient
pagan god wanted.
j***@satx.rr.com
2010-08-17 01:05:38 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 16, 6:38 pm, "Less religion, more light"
<***@optushome.com.au> wrote:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only scapegoat, and the
scapegoat was killed and gave its blood, which is all that the
ancient
pagan god wanted."


Myth Become Fact
MARK LOWERY
One need not accept the historicity of the Gospels on blind faith. It
is eminently reasonable to believe that in Jesus Christ, born in
Bethlehem, the deepest yearnings of mankind, expressed in so many
various mythological modes, have been fulfilled.
I distinctly remember a time as a young man when it occurred to me
that Christianity, with its teachings about God becoming man, the
Virginal Conception, and the Resurrection, might in fact be one more
myth in a long line of ancient religious myths; that Jesus may have
been quite an admirable and charismatic person (if a bit mixed up as
such people often are) and that his followers gradually mythologized
their dead hero. I asked myself, a bit proud of my intellect, whether
a rational person could be expected to believe that a God came down
from heaven, became incarnate, was born of a Virgin, rose from the
dead and then ascended right back up into heaven again. Isn't this the
very essence of myth? Who can be expected to take such mythological
data as true?

To make matters worse, these thoughts occurred to me on the feast of
Christmas, at Midnight Mass. I didn't quite know what to make of it,
but it certainly was discomfiting. I imagined how easily the whole
edifice of Catholicism would come crashing down. For if the Church had
taught for centuries that these "myths" were historical facts, and if
the Church were wrong, then the Church was wrong about lots of other
things too, from her teachings on the afterlife to her teachings on
morality, and right on down the line.

Lots and lots of people have had a similar experience. Reading and
listening to thinkers such as Joseph Campbell — vis-à-vis Bill Moyers
— has only reinforced for them the possibility that Christianity is
just another version of the ancient Roman, Greek, Persian, Egyptian,
and Babylonian myths, a set of awesome stories that tell us a lot
about the human condition, but still mythical for all that. And it
hasn't helped young people much to have George Lucas come on the scene
with his admittedly brilliant Stars Wars series, claiming that he
thinks all religions are true, and that he is providing a new myth
that will be of help in a modern technological age. Lucas is a great
filmmaker but a bad philosopher.

Nor has the Jesus Seminar helped much. That's the group of "scholars"
that gets a lot of publicity, usually around Christmas and Easter, for
their "scientific" findings about the Gospels, namely, that only a
tiny portion of the material therein is historically accurate. You
guessed it — the Virginal Conception, the Resurrection, and of course
Jesus' divinity are all mythological add-ons to the historical Jesus.
While the Jesus Seminar claims objectivity, their conclusions
represent instead very particular biases of the members, biases
against the very possibility that God could have become man, died for
our sins, and risen from the dead.

In the midst of such challenges, I myself was very lucky, or rather,
very blessed. Fortunately, and providentially, a ready answer soon
appeared, an answer that literally (no pun intended) turned upside
down this argument about Christianity as a myth. The argument came
from C.S. Lewis, in a brilliant little essay called "Myth Become
Fact." Lewis opened up an entirely different possibility for me, based
on two insights:


1.All the myths of mankind's primitive religions were expressions of a
deep yearning — the deepest yearning — in mankind's consciousness,
namely that the mysterious transcendent God would come into intimate
contact with mankind, and do so in such a way that He would repair the
damages made by mankind's sinfulness, and would grant to mankind a
safety that would last forever.


2.Christianity, rather than being one myth alongside many others, is
thus the fulfillment of all previous mythological religions. It is a
myth, like the others, but this time a myth that is also a fact.
Here it is straight from the horse's mouth:

The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth
of the Dying God, without ceasing to be myth, comes down from the
heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens —
at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable
historical consequences. We pass from a Balder or an Osiris, dying
nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is
all in order) under Pontius Pilate. By becoming fact it does not cease
to be myth: that is the miracle.1
As Christoph Cardinal Schoenborn (yes, the mastermind behind the new
Catechism) has pointed out, Lewis himself as a young man had fallen
into the trap of thinking Christianity just another myth. He had read
J. G. Frazer's celebrated twelve-volume work on myth, The Golden Bough
(1890-1915), and was intrigued by the many parallels in the history of
religions to the idea of the "dying god."

In this view, the myths of Adonis and Osiris, for example, are only
myths of natural growth. These figures, who died and rose again to
renew the world and their followers, are symbols of the grain that
dies, is buried, and rises up in a new harvest. The myths symbolically
apply this natural process to human life: Man, too, must endure death
in order to live again.

As a young man, Lewis concluded that the Gospel stories were simply
another myth of natural growth. Jesus says the wheat must die to bear
fruit; He breaks the bread (grain) and calls it His body; He dies and
rises again. Thus He seems to be just another harvest-god symbolically
offering his life for the world.

Yet a moment came in Lewis' life that "turned the tables" as it were
on such reductionism. As he notes in his autobiography, Surprised by
Joy, one evening Lewis heard "the hardest boiled of all the atheists"
he'd ever known make the startling observation that the evidence for
the historicity of the Gospels was quite surprisingly good. The friend
concluded: "All that stuff of Frazer's about the Dying God. Rum thing.
It almost looks as if it had really happened once." The atheist was
thus musing on the possibility that in the Gospel we could find, yes,
all the old myths, but myths that really happened in history. This
comment from such an unlikely source paved the way for

LEWIS'S CONVERSION! 2

Lewis had always been fascinated by myths, and in fact wrote some
pretty good ones himself. Schoenborn describes what it was about myth
that fascinated Lewis: [T]hey awaken in the reader a longing for
something that is beyond his grasp. Myths have this fascination
because they effect a catharsis, that is, they move us and purify us;
thus they expand our consciousness, allowing us through them to
transcend ourselves. So myths are not "poets' deceptions" (as Plato
said in his Republic) nor demonic delusions (as many of the Church
Fathers thought), nor clerical lies (as many Enlightenment figures
asserted), but "Myth in general is . . . at its best, a real though
unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination."3

In sum, all of mankind's religious and philosophical yearnings partake
in, have an inchoate share in, the truth of the Incarnation. The
particularity of Christianity — namely, that it is the true religion —
is no longer scandalous, but a beautiful mystery that extends
universally, seeing reality whole. As someone once said to me, even if
this viewpoint is not true, it certainly is beautiful. I think it
beautiful and true.

This also accounts for all the vestiges of Christianity found in
ancient philosophy. For example, the teachings of the neo-Platonists,
as the young St. Augustine discovered on his path to conversion, had
lots of hints of Christianity in them, especially the notion of the
Logos (the Word). They had remarkable similarity to the writings of
St. John, who would not have known those works. But as St. Augustine
notes, they lacked the historical flavor of Christianity, particularly
the fact of the Word becoming flesh.

Myth and Christianity are not, therefore, antagonistic to each other.
Various myths exist either as anticipations of Christianity or as
echoes of Christianity. It then makes perfect sense that Christianity
took various pagan holidays and feast days and "borrowed" them, or
rather purified them and infused them with deeper meaning, instead of
rejecting them. Too often we try to "hide" the fact that Christmas is
really a pagan holiday that Christians borrowed. This is something
rather to be proud of.

Many Christians recently went to Rome for a Holy Year pilgrimage. One
of the big sights is the Pantheon, one of the best-preserved buildings
from Roman times. (If you don't remember, it's the ancient-looking
place that has a big opening at the top of the dome.) It was built by
Marcus Agrippa in 27 B.C. as a shrine dedicated to the planetary gods
and as an imperial monument.

In A.D. 609 the Byzantine emperor Phocas gave the building to Pope
Boniface IV, who converted it into a Christian church. A famous legend
tells us that Boniface had 28 cartloads of martyrs' bones brought to
the Pantheon from Rome's various cemeteries — hence the Christian name
of the Church, Santa Maria ad Martyres.

When you visit the Pantheon, the true relationship between myth and
Christianity can really come alive. What is the relationship between
all the gods and goddesses of antiquity, shrouded in myth, and
Christianity? Christianity is myth become fact. The Pantheon-become-
Church is a reminder of this fulfillment, and a reminder that all of
mankind's religious and philosophical yearnings have an inchoate share
in the truth of the Incarnation.

The book I've been quoting from, The Mystery of the Incarnation by
Christoph Cardinal Schoenborn (Ignatius Press, 1983), is now out of
print. I used to have my students at the University of Dallas read
this little book before they went on their sojourn in Rome and Greece
— after all, when students see all the pagan shrines, it can easily
occur to them that maybe Christianity is just another myth like all
these other ancient ones. And if they've read or seen Joseph Campbell,
who has popularized the idea of myth, then they can easily have their
Christianity pulled out from under them.

That disaster is made all the more easy by the fact that it is
convenient to put Christianity on the back burner for a while, to keep
Christianity as a nice "mythical" religion on their shelf, practiced a
bit on Christmas and Easter and maybe Ash Wednesday. It is
particularly convenient to take Christianity's moral code and put it
on the shelf for a while. If the Church is wrong when it teaches that
God became man, died for our salvation, and rose from the dead, then
the Church is probably equally wrong in its moral code that instructs
us about euthanasia, just wages, homosexuality, just war, abortion,
slavery, sterilization, and genocide.

Then, as one runs about flouting a new "enlightened" idea that
Christianity is really just a myth, one neatly rationalizes any
variety of immoral acts. The enlightened person's life soon becomes
sheer misery, an enslavement to sin. In a word, this "enlightened"
viewpoint isn't really very enlightened.

This Christmas, think about it the other way around. Christianity,
without ceasing to be mythical, is solidly rooted in fact. Your faith
is rooted in real events that happened in history. Did you ever notice
how the first chapter of St. John's Gospel, accused of being the
epitome of myth with its claims about the Word becoming flesh,
sparkles with historical detail? ("A man named John . . . "). Have you
ever noticed how St. Luke goes out of his way to state that his
account is based on real facts (see Luke 1:1-4)? And St. Paul comes
right out with it: "And if Christ has not been raised, then empty is
our teaching" (1 Cor. 15:14).

One need not accept the historicity of the Gospels on blind faith. It
is eminently reasonable to believe that in Jesus Christ, born in
Bethlehem, the deepest yearnings of mankind, expressed in so many
various mythological modes, have been fulfilled.

ENDNOTES:


1.C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics (Grand
Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1970), 66-67.

2.C. S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy (London: Collins, 1955), 178-9.

3.Schoenborn, 17.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Mark Lowery "Myth Become Fact." Envoy (Janauary/February 2001)

Reprinted courtesy of Envoy Magazine.

THE AUTHOR

Dr. Mark Lowery is a husband and the father of six children. Dr. Mark
Lowery is Associate Professor, Department of Theology, University of
Dallas, Irving, TX 75062. Mark Lowery, Ph.D., can be contacted by e-
mail at ***@acad.udallas.edu

Copyright © 2001 Envoy


http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0071.html
duke
2010-08-14 12:55:07 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:41:33 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:39:35 +1000, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
Yet Jesus said that if we want eternal life, keep the commandments.
Did he use the word commandment?
Well, he could have use the word "motorcycle", but I don't think he did.
Post by Less religion, more light
No. All we have is translations and interpretations mixed with men's
legalistic fear based beliefs.
The 10 Motorcycles are a moral code from God. That's not difficult to
comprehend. After all, they say "do/do not".
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by duke
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
So you don't believe that the bible is the inspired word of God?
Parts of it have high wisdom and so could have been inspired to some
extents.
However other parts are definitely from the minds of men.
The bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God written in the hand and
culture of man.
RWKnapp
2010-08-17 10:29:08 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 13, 2:39 pm, "Less religion, more light"
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 14:35:45 -0700, vince garcia
But the law has been set aside as old and outdated. Not so the 10
commandments.
What do you think the Ten Commandments are if not the LAW?
The so called ten commandments are societal guidelines for basic morality.
They are not really commandments from God. That notion is a major
distortion.
So they are the LAW, all your run around and said nothing, they are
guidelines for what ever reason is the Law for that guideline. Could
not be any easier. Most people would disagree with you for the past
four or five thousand years it really is from God, your out numbered
by billions of folks. The only distortion is your.
Post by Less religion, more light
Post by RWKnapp
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he
commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on
two tables of stone.
Exodus 24:12 And the LORD said to Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give you tables of stone, and a law, and
commandments which I have written; that you may teach them.
You are quoting human stories from the Bible.
Do think a Spirit is going to write in the Bible or any other book,
humans do it, as they do in all books produced by people and the last
time I looked, I seen a computer do it, then still a human had to turn
it on, and program it. Really your statement is foolish, unless you
think your from some other world, maybe the moon or mars otherwise all
stories are human stories.

Raymond

RWKnapp
2010-08-08 12:08:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Kupp
WHAT WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS?
We are all condemned to death for our past sins before being born of God.
No me, Jesus gave his life so I could have eternal life, long before I
was born or had any sins. His blood cleans ALL SIN. When born one
has a opportunity for Heaven or Hell, so can not be condemned to death
at that time but given a chance for Heaven. Which is great.
Post by Donna Kupp
When we repent, all past sins which required our death because of the
law of sin and death are forgiven.
Never happens nothing requires our death, then what death? Since we
are eternal beings, we will live eternally in Heaven or Hell, what law
of sin, sounds like some church teaching that long ago left the love
of Jesus. One can repent all they like if they do not confess and do
not believe or have faith in what Jesus did for them. Repent all you
want, will get you nothing but a false feeling.
Post by Donna Kupp
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in
his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God;
I agree with that still repenting without faith is just making a
public spectre of yourself and your pride feels better as you think
you made something that never happen.
Post by Donna Kupp
The Greek word for "handwriting of ordinances" which were nailed to
the cross (KJV) is "cheriographon" which means - a certificate of
debt.
Show us that document which was never nailed to any cross, the ruler
did put a notice that Jesus was the King of the Jews.
Post by Donna Kupp
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way,
nailing it to his cross;
Give us what you think was nailed to the cross, we Know Jesus was, and
the thief and criminals.
Post by Donna Kupp
The Biblical concept of sin is that when we sin we owe a debt to God
which can only be paid by the shedding of blood - our death.
What church said that concept, we all were born without sin and owe no
no debt to God as God made Man after His own likeness or image. We
can never pay for our sins by death or anything else. Only Jesus can
do that and only Jesus can accept those he lets have that free pass
from Hell to heaven.
Post by Donna Kupp
Remember the Lord's prayer.. Father forgive us our debts..."?
AS we forgive them that their debts, has nothing to do with us and our
sins, it is about people doing wrong to us and no to do wrong to
others or make them pay you. Has nothing to do with eternal life or
sins that puts a person in Hell.
Post by Donna Kupp
Paul was referring to the Roman practice of nailing a list of the
crimes a person has committed to the cross when that person was
crucified as an analogy for what was nailed to the cross of Christ.
I wonder if you got Paul mixed up with Martin Luther and his list on
the church door.
Post by Donna Kupp
Spiritually speaking what was nailed to the cross was a list of all
our past sins (debts) which are covered by the blood (death) of
Jesus.
Spiritually speaking means nothing was nailed, as a spirit has no body
to nail in the first place.
Post by Donna Kupp
Harold and Donna Kupp
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianit.....................
Sound like something about your doctrine and why you are a
counterfeit, your sure not a Christian at all
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